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hey guys how's it going we're back again

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hello hello

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hi guys

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so another interesting uh period for the

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Calvin case you know it's come back into

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the Limelight with this story that's

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just released in the Scottish daily

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record with the name that was on the

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back of the photograph and uh

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yeah let's let's start this conversation

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going back to David when you first got

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the name and uh let's try and go through

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the kind of timeline of what we've been

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doing for the last

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seven eight nine ten months

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well in terms of the name we I think we

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we we we we got the name around sort of

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Mayor no it must have been June or July

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last year from um Craig Lindsay and we

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we as I think we said on the last um

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recording we did that um we did we

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decided to deliberately sit on the name

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and which I think we've done now for

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about a good 10 months

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um precisely for the reason that we just

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wanted to see if anyone came forward

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when the um the the original photo was

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first published in the Daily Mail

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um who

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um obviously when you publish something

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like that you get lots of people coming

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forward saying that they know something

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about the photograph or they're the

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photographer and we thought that by by

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not publishing the name we could sort of

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have hold some information back so that

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we could test the authenticity of any

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claims that were made but bizarrely uh

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no one has actually come forward to

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claim that that's their photograph which

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I find utterly baffling although we have

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we'll get to this but you know there is

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there has been at least one person

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that's come forward who says that

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um they were there at the time and they

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knew the photographers

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yeah absolutely

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um now obviously the the we fast forward

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to I think the 12th of August and the

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Daily Mail article which you wrote David

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and you know that was a double page

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spread in the mail you know obviously

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that suddenly within a matter of hours

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if not you know days went all around the

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world and you know it was an extremely

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busy time for us all

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um and apparently one of the best red

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um pieces on the mail online for the

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entire of 2022 in terms of number of

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clicks and shares Etc wow I did not know

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that that's impressive fantastic so I

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mean I suppose after that you know that

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really is when our investigation ramped

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up because you know we weren't just

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willing to to sit on it oh look we've

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got the photograph out there that's our

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job done it was definitely not the case

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so let's talk about the initial

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beginnings of the investigation after

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that and I know this involves Giles here

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and and our good friend strafe Wilson

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because you know the conversation that

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immediately came up was about the

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location and and whether this was a

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reflection and all this kind of thing so

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Giles you want do you want to come in on

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that and talk about the location

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on the photograph

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yeah I mean going back to the we've

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obviously when it was first um

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uh publicized the the picture it wasn't

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obviously as clear as the um the initial

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um

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reconstruction picture from from Nick

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Pope but um

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we basically just had foreground which

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was a shame we didn't have any

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any definitive background

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um

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which was which was unfortunate but the

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fencing certainly stuck out for me

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straight away and I um

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I told Dave at the time I thought I knew

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exactly where it was and um

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when Dave came up and we did a

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we did a high count of the hills and I

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took him up there and I think he thought

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it was it was pretty much where we

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believed it to be so

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yeah

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it's still ultimately I mean it's still

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it's still a guess it's just that little

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bit of of information we've got from the

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picture but

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um there's I mean I've even since since

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August

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I've hiked out into the hill into the

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Hills

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several miles out from from Calvin and

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there's nothing there's nothing similar

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at all fencing wise

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and it just seemed to fit exactly where

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you'd think if you were coming out from

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pitlockery and you wanted to do a walk

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especially that late in the evening you

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only had so much light left

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you wanted to do it you know an hour or

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two's walk you're not going to get very

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far before you write out in the middle

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of nowhere

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so for me there's actually not that many

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places if if it is Calvin

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where you can you can walk because

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you're walking uphill

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um you're walking up to a certain

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altitude elevation

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which I think clearly this

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image shows it that it is at an

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elevation because

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you would expect to see Hills mountains

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in the background

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if you if you were a lower elevation

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you'd have some background the fact that

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there is no background to me suggests

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that they'd climbed up to a certain

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elevation before taking the picture so

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a nice stick by that I said no were we

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now ten nine ten months later

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well yeah 10 months later and I've not

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found anywhere

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that I think would be more likely than

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stew and point

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yeah I don't really want to I don't want

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to speak for strafe but I know that he

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has you know come up with a very similar

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description that when you look at the

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Shrubbery the fence yeah and that there

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aren't many other locations that have

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those things in that kind of no it's not

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perfect straight thought the same yeah

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we went up together and he thought yeah

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it looks this looks like a a highly

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likely candidate so but again it's you

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know it's it's our best guess

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yeah

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on to the start of September because we

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found it I think you spoke to us

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somebody very interesting from the RAF

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do you want to talk about that yeah

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um when I started to investigate this

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case

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um a man came forward on social media

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and recounted a tale to me uh which I

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you know substantiated to a reasonably

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High degree from what public sources are

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available that his father had

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um left the Raf in the late 80s

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uh and then been subcontracted by the

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mod to work on air defense

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investigations and

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he didn't the man the son told me that

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his dad had uh investigated the calvine

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photograph along with the one on the oil

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rig as he put it which is the Chris

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um and he was part of the three or

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four-man company

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um and uh the company was wound up in

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the mid 90s when his father passed away

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and uh this sort of LED lent Credence to

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the idea that

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you know some of these things were being

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put beyond the reach of the Freedom of

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Information Act

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if you know if what evidence and

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materials had been submitted were

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transferred to

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a limited company with you know limited

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ownership there'd be no way of anyone

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knowing that

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um and no means of getting that

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information back into the uh the domain

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where the general public could ever

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access it again

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um and he was very forthcoming and he

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seemed perfectly genuine and honest and

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I found his his dad in the the public

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records

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um all these promotions all the way up

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to group captain and uh yeah so it was

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it was quite a it's quite a promising

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start at that point

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um that people were willing to be this

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sort of forthcoming

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yeah absolutely and I mean it does it

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also adds Credence to the the fact that

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these photographs were genuine as well

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and they didn't just show

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uh rocking a lake and stuff like that

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that if these these groups are being

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tasked to look at these images that

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there's something to it um I mean kind

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of assuming a bit a bit there but um so

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let's move on further on in September

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and we saw some some of us here start

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contacting our local MPS so how do we go

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I just wrote to mind I think David you

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you actually met with yours yeah Louise

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Hague who's a shadow Northern Ireland

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transport Minister MP4 Healy and

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Sheffield and she um sent a letter with

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a list of questions to

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um I can't remember his name but he was

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like one he well she sent it to the um

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Minister of Defense whose name

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escapesley Ben Wallace that's it and he

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got one of his minions to

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um respond one of the junior ministers

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who basically the it's exactly what I

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expected them to say sorry you know that

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the the the thing that's in the being

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released at the National Archives is the

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only surviving historical record and we

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can't say anything more about it it

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didn't potently did not answer one of

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the specific questions which was was the

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um was the qra which is the quick

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reaction alert Squadron

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um triggered

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um by an intruder aircraft on that

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particular day they just ignored that

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question altogether

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um

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which was a question that one of our RAF

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contacts said that we should put to them

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and that to me is a bit suspicious

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because they didn't even make an excuse

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like oh it would cost too much money to

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go looking through the records which is

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the usual way out

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um so that was ignored but interestingly

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what the response about the thing about

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it being an American reconnaissance

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aircraft they just basically passed the

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book on that and said um well that's

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something for the Americans

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which is pretty much how we answered all

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the Parliamentary questions about it

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back in the 90s when coincidentally

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um Chris Gibson's sighting actually made

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it into the newspapers this is the guy

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on the oil rigger we've been talking to

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quite recently who was a member of the

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royal Observer Corps and he knows you

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know expert identification skills on

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aircraft and he was on this oil rig in

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the North Sea not long after the Calvin

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incident and he saw this triangular

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object being escorted by him I think it

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was f11s and a kc1 135 tanker and he

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just couldn't identify what the object

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was and I interviewed him

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uh quite recently is his memory of this

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is still absolutely crystal clear and he

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still says he can't to this day he

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doesn't know what it was he saw Chris

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Gibson as well was a trained Observer

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for aircraft really knew his stuff so

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you know that again for him to not

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identify and identify this plane or

280
00:11:05,150 --> 00:11:02,880
object is it says something and if you

281
00:11:07,310 --> 00:11:05,160
don't mind can we just talk about the uh

282
00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:07,320
the intelligence Source let's say David

283
00:11:10,430 --> 00:11:08,760
that you've spoken to on a number of

284
00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:10,440
occasions

285
00:11:13,550 --> 00:11:11,820
um because we've mentioned this on a

286
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:13,560
previous recording about how he knew

287
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:15,120
what he said he knew what it was but he

288
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:16,320
actually did give us a little bit of

289
00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:18,240
detail about what the object's mission

290
00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:20,100
was and things like that can we can we

291
00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:21,540
just talk to that to a little bit more

292
00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:25,260
yeah he basically said that um what it

293
00:11:30,009 --> 00:11:27,480
was that was seen was an American

294
00:11:32,990 --> 00:11:30,019
um some kind of reconnaissance stealth

295
00:11:34,370 --> 00:11:33,000
stealthy aircraft platform whatever you

296
00:11:37,009 --> 00:11:34,380
want to call it

297
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:37,019
um that was being used during that was

298
00:11:41,569 --> 00:11:38,880
used during the Cold War that's never

299
00:11:43,310 --> 00:11:41,579
sorry the Iraq War Operation Desert

300
00:11:44,329 --> 00:11:43,320
storm

301
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:44,339
um and

302
00:11:49,310 --> 00:11:46,380
um it was some kind of thing that was

303
00:11:51,530 --> 00:11:49,320
invisible to radar that they sent in to

304
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:51,540
basically identify targets with a

305
00:11:55,610 --> 00:11:53,519
directed laser beam

306
00:11:58,009 --> 00:11:55,620
um and that's then what the what the F1

307
00:11:59,210 --> 00:11:58,019
the stealth Fighters and the missiles

308
00:12:03,110 --> 00:11:59,220
used

309
00:12:05,389 --> 00:12:03,120
um and and they and and presumably this

310
00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:05,399
thing has been used in other theaters of

311
00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:08,040
conflicts conflicts as well and it's it

312
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:10,740
it's still on the secret list after 30

313
00:12:14,930 --> 00:12:12,959
years now maybe he's

314
00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:14,940
um spitting me a yarn

315
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:17,880
but that's what he says it was and

316
00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:20,399
basically he can't say exactly what it

317
00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:22,860
was but that that's effectively what he

318
00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:25,560
was saying he thinks it was and he was

319
00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:27,180
in a position to know

320
00:12:31,009 --> 00:12:28,860
yeah absolutely and I think one other

321
00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:31,019
thing that I found really interesting

322
00:12:35,449 --> 00:12:33,720
about that conversation was that

323
00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:35,459
to the question of why would it be above

324
00:12:40,670 --> 00:12:37,800
Scotland and you know his response being

325
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:40,680
that they regularly flew things into RAF

326
00:12:45,410 --> 00:12:43,200
macrahanish over on the west coast but

327
00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:45,420
also that the terrain above Scotland was

328
00:12:49,069 --> 00:12:47,700
similar to the terrain in these these

329
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:49,079
places that they were going with it you

330
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:50,639
know this hilly and there's mountains

331
00:12:55,129 --> 00:12:53,279
and stuff in uh you know in the theater

332
00:12:56,690 --> 00:12:55,139
of war and the conflicts so that you

333
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:56,700
know that really stood out as well and

334
00:13:00,530 --> 00:12:59,279
and another thing I suppose were saying

335
00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:00,540
is that when listening to this

336
00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:04,440
conversation this guy is not trying to

337
00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:07,500
it seems genuine in in the way he talks

338
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:08,940
and things like that I think that you

339
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,740
know he's yeah well I think we've gone

340
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,480
over this before and like the first time

341
00:13:16,129 --> 00:13:14,639
I contacted him was before I even we

342
00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:16,139
even started investigating this

343
00:13:20,930 --> 00:13:18,660
particular story yeah and I I just come

344
00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:20,940
across his name by accident in the um

345
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,980
National Archives and I just phoned him

346
00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:24,720
up because I knew that he dealt with

347
00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:27,480
this subject at the time

348
00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:29,220
um well I emailed him and just said well

349
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:30,120
I've seen your name in the National

350
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,920
Archives I know you had a responsibility

351
00:13:35,870 --> 00:13:34,320
for UFOs is it all right if we have a

352
00:13:37,129 --> 00:13:35,880
chat and he'd be texting me back and

353
00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:37,139
said yeah no problem you know I'm

354
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:39,300
retired now you know I can't talk about

355
00:13:42,889 --> 00:13:41,040
anything that was top secret but happy

356
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:42,899
to talk to you about UFOs because they

357
00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:46,560
weren't top secret and I I we I was just

358
00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:48,120
having a general conversation like you

359
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,800
know what did you do and how many

360
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:51,839
reports did you handle every day and

361
00:13:56,690 --> 00:13:54,240
what was your feelings about them and I

362
00:13:58,490 --> 00:13:56,700
just sort of normal sorts of question

363
00:14:00,050 --> 00:13:58,500
was there anything any particular

364
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:00,060
incident that stuck in your mind from

365
00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:02,000
that period that you were

366
00:14:06,050 --> 00:14:04,260
you were responsible for investigating

367
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:06,060
the UFOs and uh

368
00:14:10,129 --> 00:14:07,920
and he just dropped it out yeah there

369
00:14:13,129 --> 00:14:10,139
was this occasion in these two ones in

370
00:14:15,290 --> 00:14:13,139
Scotland so he didn't know I was going

371
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:15,300
to ask him about that and no I wasn't

372
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,760
asking him about it I've got the

373
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:20,160
verbatim quote here yeah I've listened

374
00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:23,519
to it today and uh you just I like it

375
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,660
exactly as you've said you just said

376
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:26,639
well is there anything inexplicable in

377
00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:29,519
uh your sort of career

378
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:31,380
um and he said there was one case where

379
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,760
there were a couple of poachers up in

380
00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:34,800
Scotland and having photographed each

381
00:14:37,310 --> 00:14:36,120
other with their kill they happened to

382
00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:37,320
catch some aircraft in the background

383
00:14:48,769 --> 00:14:46,069
that's his quote and you then just start

384
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:48,779
to talk about it you know is that about

385
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:50,399
Aurora and he's like yeah that's the one

386
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:53,459
and then he starts just reeling off all

387
00:14:57,410 --> 00:14:55,320
the information and he's if you've

388
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:57,420
listened to this I I looked at it there

389
00:15:02,689 --> 00:15:00,240
was sort of two and a half hours of sort

390
00:15:06,889 --> 00:15:02,699
of interviews uh multiple separate

391
00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:06,899
conversations and uh he's not especially

392
00:15:11,090 --> 00:15:09,000
like in in this you know when he's just

393
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:11,100
off the cuff unprompted you you know you

394
00:15:15,170 --> 00:15:12,720
didn't mention Calvin you didn't mention

395
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:15,180
Aurora uh at least initially you know

396
00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:16,860
you were just asked him was what was

397
00:15:21,650 --> 00:15:19,260
inexplicable and he just started to to

398
00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:21,660
give the the uh the information about

399
00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:23,220
this case

400
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:25,260
um and then just described

401
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:27,899
you know the nature of the aircraft the

402
00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:29,839
the fact that there were two areas there

403
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,540
uh one American one British and um yeah

404
00:15:37,490 --> 00:15:35,279
the facts just kept coming

405
00:15:40,129 --> 00:15:37,500
yeah absolutely and I think it was when

406
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:40,139
he said it was definitely not a hoax it

407
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:42,000
was definitely good film let's put it

408
00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:45,240
that way yeah at the time I mean I knew

409
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:46,680
something about the case obviously I've

410
00:15:51,129 --> 00:15:48,720
seen it in the papers of the night I'd

411
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:51,139
concluded as everyone knows

412
00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:54,000
yeah so I was sort of saying to him well

413
00:16:02,949 --> 00:15:57,660
wasn't this a hoax and he was saying no

414
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:05,389
yeah I always liked the bit about you

415
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:07,680
you say something like uh Aurora was a

416
00:16:13,689 --> 00:16:09,360
myth wasn't it and then he just go he

417
00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:16,610
yeah I think to be fair I mean we have

418
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:19,800
had contact with someone else from uh in

419
00:16:23,389 --> 00:16:21,300
British intelligence since haven't we

420
00:16:25,129 --> 00:16:23,399
Vinnie who again yes obviously we've got

421
00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:25,139
to protect these people's identity but

422
00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:27,180
he was telling pretty much the same

423
00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:28,980
story and he was saying that it was the

424
00:16:32,930 --> 00:16:31,680
talk of the office that they knew that

425
00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:32,940
this thing had been photographed and

426
00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:34,740
that they had a big poster-sized version

427
00:16:39,889 --> 00:16:36,600
of it on the wall as well and that as

428
00:16:42,290 --> 00:16:39,899
soon as they're sort of head of Defense

429
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,300
intelligence saw this thing it was

430
00:16:45,889 --> 00:16:44,399
immediately classified secret and they

431
00:16:46,970 --> 00:16:45,899
were all told to keep you know keep

432
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,980
stump

433
00:16:50,210 --> 00:16:48,959
well this is the thing where I'm I get a

434
00:16:51,949 --> 00:16:50,220
little bit confused is was the

435
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,959
photograph ever classified top secret

436
00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:54,240
was the actual photograph because it it

437
00:16:59,150 --> 00:16:55,800
certainly doesn't reside in any of the

438
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:59,160
mod files pertaining to Calvin does it

439
00:17:04,010 --> 00:17:01,199
well I think I think this second contact

440
00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:04,020
told us it um told us that what it was

441
00:17:09,049 --> 00:17:07,260
classified secret Not Top Secret okay

442
00:17:10,429 --> 00:17:09,059
there's a difference obviously in the um

443
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:10,439
you know the importance of it of

444
00:17:15,169 --> 00:17:13,439
something but I think certainly by 2009

445
00:17:17,030 --> 00:17:15,179
when they released that crappy um

446
00:17:19,309 --> 00:17:17,040
photocopied thing about it it must have

447
00:17:21,890 --> 00:17:19,319
been downgraded to unclassified by then

448
00:17:24,289 --> 00:17:21,900
but when we say unclassified they've

449
00:17:26,569 --> 00:17:24,299
still never released an official sort of

450
00:17:29,150 --> 00:17:26,579
really good quality image of it haven't

451
00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:29,160
they no we don't know and because they

452
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,500
won't they're not very forthcoming about

453
00:17:35,090 --> 00:17:33,360
it and they appear to have lost all

454
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:35,100
their records on the subject they don't

455
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:38,160
know this is the bizarre thing yeah

456
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,799
absolutely yeah I think personally

457
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:42,720
there's a potential and it's sort of

458
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:44,760
reading between the lines a little bit

459
00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:45,840
the

460
00:17:51,289 --> 00:17:49,020
when it got sent to seke yes

461
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:51,299
it appears that somebody at that point

462
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,600
made the copy that was on the wall that

463
00:17:59,930 --> 00:17:56,880
Nick Pope and Craig Lindsay have both

464
00:18:02,150 --> 00:17:59,940
said they saw and then they were passed

465
00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:02,160
on to on the Assumption I would imagine

466
00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:05,340
that they just thought this was a fake

467
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,500
I I can I can imagine that it comes in

468
00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:09,600
and they they just think oh this is

469
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,820
clearly just something like it makes a

470
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:14,000
rock in a lake or something like that

471
00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:16,860
and then it gets passed onto the di55

472
00:18:22,610 --> 00:18:20,340
and if they were sent everything it's a

473
00:18:24,830 --> 00:18:22,620
bit like when when Craig they forgot

474
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:24,840
about the copy that Craig had got they

475
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:26,880
overlooked it and I can imagine that

476
00:18:29,930 --> 00:18:28,080
that there was the potential for

477
00:18:33,950 --> 00:18:29,940
something similar to happen with the

478
00:18:36,409 --> 00:18:33,960
copies that uh SEC a s had the I-55 gets

479
00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:36,419
it they realize what it is and it

480
00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:38,280
vanishes

481
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:41,460
um and the don't go back to secas

482
00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:43,919
because that would you know give the

483
00:18:48,409 --> 00:18:46,140
game away to people who weren't didn't

484
00:18:51,529 --> 00:18:48,419
have a need to know as it were

485
00:18:54,409 --> 00:18:51,539
um so and I think that's that might be

486
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:54,419
some way towards what happened

487
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:56,220
because various people have said it how

488
00:18:59,330 --> 00:18:57,840
could it have been secret if they had it

489
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,340
on the wall and all these various people

490
00:19:03,710 --> 00:19:00,960
were wandering in and seeing it that

491
00:19:06,430 --> 00:19:03,720
oddly suggests it was top secret but you

492
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:06,440
know the way you've just put it Matthew

493
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:08,820
shows well you know what's likely to

494
00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:11,460
have happened and if you read some of

495
00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:13,559
the latest stuff in the late 1990s they

496
00:19:18,650 --> 00:19:15,799
didn't trust secas

497
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:18,660
stop sending them material they didn't

498
00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:19,980
even send them the condyle report

499
00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:21,240
because they didn't trust them because

500
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:23,340
of what Nick Pope had been doing with

501
00:19:28,010 --> 00:19:25,140
all his sort of you know becoming a TV

502
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:28,020
celebrity interview so it was like it

503
00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:29,760
caused this huge

504
00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:32,340
um Rift between these two departments

505
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:34,740
who dealt with the subject

506
00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:37,440
yeah absolutely and moving on I think

507
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:38,520
one thing that we have to keep

508
00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:39,840
mentioning as well is that although

509
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:41,640
we're looking for these these Witnesses

510
00:19:45,529 --> 00:19:42,720
and stuff we're still very much

511
00:19:47,210 --> 00:19:45,539
interested in these two harriers or

512
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:47,220
whatever the aircraft were and you know

513
00:19:51,409 --> 00:19:49,919
luckily we've had Graham Rendell uh

514
00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:51,419
doing great work on that he's you know

515
00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:54,120
with our resident Aviation expert and I

516
00:19:59,390 --> 00:19:57,000
think it was in October that Graham had

517
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,400
written an article for UAP media which

518
00:20:05,330 --> 00:20:02,480
pretty much ruled out I think it's

519
00:20:07,970 --> 00:20:05,340
2370cu which was suggested by Chris

520
00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:07,980
Gibson who you know the oil oil worker

521
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:09,480
so you know I think that's also

522
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,460
definitely worth mentioning the the

523
00:20:15,289 --> 00:20:13,200
aircraft side of the investigation and

524
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:15,299
Matthew do you want to quickly speak to

525
00:20:19,549 --> 00:20:16,740
the fact that you've been looking into

526
00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:19,559
that recently by being on these these uh

527
00:20:24,289 --> 00:20:23,160
forums and the aviation magazines you

528
00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:24,299
know do you want to just talk to that

529
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:26,460
yeah sure do you also want to mention

530
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:28,020
the thing about various people have

531
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:29,760
suggested it's not a Harrier it's a

532
00:20:35,090 --> 00:20:30,480
hunter

533
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:35,100
yeah I I went on a um a forum called uh

534
00:20:41,810 --> 00:20:38,880
PP Rune professional Pilots rumor

535
00:20:42,650 --> 00:20:41,820
Network and the people they were really

536
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:42,660
good

537
00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:44,400
um they were forthcoming

538
00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:45,900
um for the most part they were like

539
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:48,120
really personable

540
00:20:52,610 --> 00:20:50,160
um you know there's various places where

541
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,620
that's not the case but the pp Rune was

542
00:20:58,130 --> 00:20:55,440
uh was really quite good and um a lot of

543
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:58,140
them people messaged me privately and

544
00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:00,840
there was quite a debate

545
00:21:08,029 --> 00:21:04,860
um as to the nature of the the image and

546
00:21:10,909 --> 00:21:08,039
then some people were convinced that it

547
00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:10,919
was a hunter rather than a Harrier and

548
00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:12,600
there was like the general conflict as

549
00:21:17,090 --> 00:21:14,940
to well you know it was a Saturday and

550
00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:17,100
Harry has simply just did not fly on a

551
00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:19,080
Saturday it didn't make any any

552
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:20,580
indifference Pilots wanted their

553
00:21:26,570 --> 00:21:22,080
weekends

554
00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:26,580
um and then we there was a suggestion

555
00:21:33,289 --> 00:21:29,460
that British Aerospace

556
00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:33,299
um used Hunters as camera platforms

557
00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:35,460
uh so they have you know gun camera Wing

558
00:21:39,529 --> 00:21:36,900
cameras and so on and so forth and

559
00:21:41,690 --> 00:21:39,539
they'd fly alongside whatever new

560
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:41,700
vehicle they were testing

561
00:21:45,770 --> 00:21:43,500
um record it and then have that as

562
00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:45,780
playback you know so you can see the

563
00:21:49,070 --> 00:21:47,340
visuals

564
00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:49,080
um we didn't we never really sort of got

565
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:50,940
a a final version people were just

566
00:21:56,810 --> 00:21:54,240
content to say that the silhouette given

567
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,820
that it's quite blurry could be one or

568
00:22:01,010 --> 00:21:58,320
the other

569
00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:01,020
um but it was certainly a possibility

570
00:22:06,010 --> 00:22:02,520
that

571
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:06,020
um it was a test if it was a hunter

572
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:07,980
although other people were equally

573
00:22:12,649 --> 00:22:10,559
adamant that it was a Harriet and that

574
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:12,659
played into the fact with what we'd been

575
00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:16,980
told by the defense source that it's the

576
00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:20,100
diamond was being escorted and that's

577
00:22:26,029 --> 00:22:23,340
why the harriers were there

578
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:26,039
um and that also was lent credibility by

579
00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:27,900
the fact that David found that they had

580
00:22:34,010 --> 00:22:30,600
not been a qra

581
00:22:37,310 --> 00:22:34,020
in August 1990 or rather they had but

582
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,320
you know at the very end of the month

583
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:39,120
um and obviously I think they use

584
00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:41,760
tornadoes is that right at the time

585
00:22:45,610 --> 00:22:43,860
so and this this was clearly not a

586
00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:45,620
tornado so

587
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:51,539
Lucas RF Lucas were the QRS yeah and uh

588
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:53,520
that lent credibility to the idea that

589
00:22:58,250 --> 00:22:55,380
this wasn't being intercepted it was

590
00:23:01,610 --> 00:22:58,260
being actively escorted

591
00:23:06,169 --> 00:23:01,620
um and then I went to the Scottish air

592
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:06,179
news which was like a a spot air

593
00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:07,919
spotters enthusiasts magazine at the

594
00:23:13,549 --> 00:23:10,980
time and um they went back and looked

595
00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:13,559
through their uh archives for me and

596
00:23:18,649 --> 00:23:15,539
they'd got no records of harriers at the

597
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:18,659
time so the the mystery source of the

598
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:21,780
harriers continues but if if macri

599
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:24,720
Hanish is as the defense Source suggests

600
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:26,640
the

601
00:23:34,490 --> 00:23:30,960
diamond

602
00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:34,500
um you know that housed U.S Navy Seals

603
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:36,980
um all sorts of secret things

604
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:40,320
Special Forces it was the abort zone for

605
00:23:43,850 --> 00:23:42,360
the uh with like one of the longest

606
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:43,860
runways in the world

607
00:23:48,409 --> 00:23:45,840
um so you could land absolutely anything

608
00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:48,419
on it yeah the if you needed to uh have

609
00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:50,580
a space shuttle come in at an in-flight

610
00:23:54,649 --> 00:23:52,260
mishap you could land it there that's

611
00:23:56,029 --> 00:23:54,659
how long this Runway was so you could

612
00:23:58,090 --> 00:23:56,039
you could get all sorts in and out of

613
00:24:01,250 --> 00:23:58,100
there and its location it's very remote

614
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:01,260
and also the operation record book of

615
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:03,120
micro Hanish for that year has just been

616
00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:04,799
open to the National Archives which has

617
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:07,320
three of you know I checked just a

618
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:09,179
couple of weeks ago and although

619
00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:10,860
obviously it doesn't say yes we have

620
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:12,900
this prototype aircraft flying from

621
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:15,780
there he does actually confirm that U.S

622
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,240
Navy special forces were operating from

623
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:20,640
there that at that particular time

624
00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:22,640
foreign

625
00:24:27,169 --> 00:24:24,600
absolutely I just think it was worth

626
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:27,179
mentioning that the investigation still

627
00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:30,360
has uh multiple prongs let's say and

628
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:32,940
yeah and another one of those prongs was

629
00:24:36,169 --> 00:24:34,799
the the origin of the you know the

630
00:24:38,090 --> 00:24:36,179
photographs going to the Scottish Daily

631
00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:38,100
Record and I think it's in early October

632
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:40,980
David you spoke to the news editor

633
00:24:46,669 --> 00:24:44,100
Malcolm speed from from speed yeah he

634
00:24:48,529 --> 00:24:46,679
was news editor at the time and uh he

635
00:24:50,029 --> 00:24:48,539
contacted me having seen the story on

636
00:24:52,970 --> 00:24:50,039
The Daily Mail and said yeah have you

637
00:24:56,029 --> 00:24:52,980
remembered the story he was news editor

638
00:24:58,909 --> 00:24:56,039
um and he remembered the photograph

639
00:25:00,830 --> 00:24:58,919
um arriving at newsdesk and being shown

640
00:25:03,289 --> 00:25:00,840
it by the picture editor

641
00:25:05,630 --> 00:25:03,299
um Andy Allen who we know sadly deceased

642
00:25:07,310 --> 00:25:05,640
he really was the key to the mystery

643
00:25:09,649 --> 00:25:07,320
solving the mystery but unfortunately

644
00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:09,659
he's not here to answer their questions

645
00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:11,700
but Malcolm speed remember being being

646
00:25:16,909 --> 00:25:14,820
shown it and unfortunately for us he was

647
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:16,919
just about to go on annual leave for two

648
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,460
weeks so he basically left the scene and

649
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:22,559
told me that he had just assumed assumed

650
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,960
that when he got back that there'd be a

651
00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:26,400
double page spread he'd be on the front

652
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:27,900
page all the rest of it and he said when

653
00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:30,240
he got back nothing not a Dickie bird

654
00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:32,940
and no one would talk to him about it

655
00:25:36,350 --> 00:25:34,440
um the Andy Allen would just

656
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:36,360
non-committal oh yeah he'd sent it to

657
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,840
the RAF and they told him it was a fake

658
00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:42,000
um he said he'd um he tried to speak to

659
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:44,460
the editor and or Laird about it and he

660
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:46,020
just would not discuss it at all just

661
00:25:49,970 --> 00:25:47,520
said leave it alone don't want to talk

662
00:25:53,149 --> 00:25:49,980
about it he said it really utterly

663
00:25:55,370 --> 00:25:53,159
baffling their attitude and like me he's

664
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:55,380
someone who's worked in as a journalist

665
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:58,320
for decades and he can't understand it

666
00:26:01,250 --> 00:25:59,880
to this day why they didn't run the

667
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,260
story he said it's you know it's like

668
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:03,120
the biggest scoop that we missed and

669
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:05,760
he'd he he did like like the rest of us

670
00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:07,500
he's like wanting to get to the bottom

671
00:26:12,649 --> 00:26:09,240
of why I didn't run the story in the

672
00:26:15,049 --> 00:26:12,659
first place because if it was a fake he

673
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,059
said regardless of its reality status

674
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:17,760
the photo is a stunning photograph and

675
00:26:22,370 --> 00:26:20,400
no journalist worth their sold would not

676
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:22,380
have run that story even if there it was

677
00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:24,480
a hoax it would have been you know hoax

678
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,700
photograph from Calvin came to our

679
00:26:31,610 --> 00:26:29,039
office here you know we the the record

680
00:26:33,529 --> 00:26:31,620
of solve the the mystery we sent it to

681
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:33,539
the RAF and the RAF told us it was a

682
00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:36,240
fake here it is you wouldn't not run the

683
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:38,220
photograph and then of course we had

684
00:26:42,409 --> 00:26:39,900
this Stuart Little character didn't we

685
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:42,419
the the guy that um came forward and

686
00:26:46,970 --> 00:26:44,940
said that um he was a freelance

687
00:26:51,049 --> 00:26:46,980
journalist at the time and remembered

688
00:26:53,210 --> 00:26:51,059
seeing the other five um images in in a

689
00:26:56,510 --> 00:26:53,220
strip of negatives pinned on the on the

690
00:26:59,390 --> 00:26:56,520
wall of the the the the the office the

691
00:27:00,169 --> 00:26:59,400
photographers used in Glasgow now I'm

692
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:00,179
sure

693
00:27:06,289 --> 00:27:03,600
the rest of the story

694
00:27:08,990 --> 00:27:06,299
um but you know there's all seems to

695
00:27:11,210 --> 00:27:09,000
stitch together that there was something

696
00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:11,220
um about the photographs that was that

697
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:13,140
is genuinely mysterious and the reason

698
00:27:18,049 --> 00:27:15,960
why that just as mysterious as the

699
00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:18,059
photographs is why the record didn't

700
00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:20,460
publish in the first place

701
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:22,740
yeah absolutely and this is around the

702
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,620
same time that as we're pursuing this uh

703
00:27:30,769 --> 00:27:27,120
active investigation looking for Kevin

704
00:27:32,029 --> 00:27:30,779
Russell we uh we get another a source

705
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:32,039
let's say

706
00:27:37,549 --> 00:27:35,700
um who gave us the surname Russell for a

707
00:27:40,610 --> 00:27:37,559
man and a woman who we believed maybe

708
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:40,620
Kevin Russell's parents so uh who who I

709
00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:42,000
forget know that if that was Matthew or

710
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:43,980
you David that first got those names who

711
00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:45,600
who was that

712
00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:46,740
um This was

713
00:27:51,230 --> 00:27:49,320
um someone who contacted a colleague of

714
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:51,240
ours another ufologist

715
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:53,039
um I'm not going to say who he was

716
00:27:57,049 --> 00:27:54,480
because I don't want to reveal the the

717
00:27:59,570 --> 00:27:57,059
name of the the contact but he came

718
00:28:01,789 --> 00:27:59,580
forward and I had a lengthy

719
00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:01,799
um correspondence with him which I'm

720
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:03,960
it's still ongoing in fact in fact he

721
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:05,700
first contacted me when I was at a

722
00:28:10,610 --> 00:28:08,159
conference in Canada and this must have

723
00:28:12,769 --> 00:28:10,620
been like before the mail

724
00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:12,779
um publish publish my story about this

725
00:28:16,730 --> 00:28:14,760
and he basically said that he worked

726
00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:16,740
with the two um people who took the

727
00:28:21,649 --> 00:28:19,320
photograph and he's been able to um give

728
00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:21,659
me the net their first names but not the

729
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:23,400
surnames

730
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:27,480
um and he he named a hotel in pitlochry

731
00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:29,340
where he said he worked with them at the

732
00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:31,500
time and he said they were out basically

733
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:32,940
on the Moors

734
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,240
um picking mushrooms magic mushrooms

735
00:28:42,169 --> 00:28:37,679
um and that's when this thing happened

736
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:42,179
and he said that um a friend or they I'm

737
00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:44,340
not clear whether it was them or someone

738
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:46,559
that who they knew that basically had

739
00:28:50,269 --> 00:28:48,240
the photograph developed and he was from

740
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,279
a very cheap sort of camera the sort of

741
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:52,080
thing you would a disposable camera

742
00:28:56,029 --> 00:28:53,880
you'd buy in Boots and they took the

743
00:28:58,430 --> 00:28:56,039
photographs to the Daily Record in

744
00:29:00,289 --> 00:28:58,440
Glasgow and that's basically when things

745
00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:00,299
started going very very strange that

746
00:29:04,370 --> 00:29:02,580
these two guys who were like life and

747
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:04,380
soul of the party you know out drinking

748
00:29:09,649 --> 00:29:06,000
every night enjoying themselves suddenly

749
00:29:11,210 --> 00:29:09,659
a complete change in in their behavior

750
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:11,220
one of them went completely off the

751
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,500
rails ended up in trouble with the law

752
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,840
both of them vanished took off back home

753
00:29:20,029 --> 00:29:17,520
wherever it was they came from different

754
00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:20,039
parts of Scotland and apparently the

755
00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:24,120
what what caused all this was when they

756
00:29:28,010 --> 00:29:25,620
turn the photographs over to the record

757
00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:28,020
the record as we know turn them over to

758
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:30,179
the ministry of defense and then within

759
00:29:33,710 --> 00:29:31,679
a couple of weeks

760
00:29:34,970 --> 00:29:33,720
um a card a car turn this is classic Men

761
00:29:38,269 --> 00:29:34,980
In Black

762
00:29:39,769 --> 00:29:38,279
um Story the car tunnel

763
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,779
um at the hotel

764
00:29:43,789 --> 00:29:41,760
um two guys who said that were from the

765
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:43,799
ministry of Defense questioned all these

766
00:29:47,330 --> 00:29:45,960
people who were involved in this working

767
00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:47,340
in this um

768
00:29:52,010 --> 00:29:50,220
in this part of the hotel

769
00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:52,020
um he remembered standing outside having

770
00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:53,880
a cigarette when this was going on and

771
00:29:57,289 --> 00:29:56,580
he said that it was that experience that

772
00:29:59,090 --> 00:29:57,299
um

773
00:30:01,490 --> 00:29:59,100
after that these two lands were never

774
00:30:03,409 --> 00:30:01,500
the same again and this chimes with what

775
00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:03,419
I was told by the defense Source because

776
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:05,700
he said that you know that

777
00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:08,880
of offices from defense intelligence

778
00:30:13,789 --> 00:30:11,340
went to Scotland and interviewed the two

779
00:30:15,710 --> 00:30:13,799
guys and there are some details that I

780
00:30:18,169 --> 00:30:15,720
was given by this source that actually

781
00:30:19,850 --> 00:30:18,179
check out you know there are details

782
00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:19,860
that somebody would not have been able

783
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:22,140
to invent so I'm pretty sure that he

784
00:30:26,810 --> 00:30:23,700
knows something

785
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:26,820
um but it sadly despite

786
00:30:31,310 --> 00:30:28,799
um all the correspondence we've had with

787
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:31,320
him he still hasn't been enough to allow

788
00:30:34,610 --> 00:30:32,760
us to track down any of the people he

789
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:34,620
was talking about all yeah absolutely

790
00:30:40,130 --> 00:30:37,679
well if you can imagine these are people

791
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:40,140
who were moving around during the summer

792
00:30:45,769 --> 00:30:43,860
going from hotel to hotel uh seasonal

793
00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:45,779
work cooking

794
00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:46,460
um

795
00:30:51,409 --> 00:30:49,320
cleaning up acting as Porters you know

796
00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:51,419
when one drop job dried up they moved to

797
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:52,980
another part of Scotland to work in

798
00:30:57,710 --> 00:30:55,440
another hotel this is something I am 30

799
00:30:59,149 --> 00:30:57,720
years ago tracking those people down I

800
00:31:01,250 --> 00:30:59,159
mean ask yourself

801
00:31:02,810 --> 00:31:01,260
you know people that maybe you were at

802
00:31:04,669 --> 00:31:02,820
school or college with 30 years ago

803
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:04,679
would you remember their second names

804
00:31:09,049 --> 00:31:07,080
would you remember somebody who you knew

805
00:31:10,909 --> 00:31:09,059
briefly for a few weeks would you be

806
00:31:12,169 --> 00:31:10,919
able to find them now yeah you can

807
00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:12,179
search for them on Facebook which

808
00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:13,320
doesn't mean so that they're still going

809
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:14,700
to be there or that they're even on

810
00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:15,960
social media

811
00:31:19,970 --> 00:31:18,360
yeah absolutely that's the problem we've

812
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,980
got

813
00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:21,840
yeah Matthew you I know you were

814
00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:23,700
involved in looking at tracking down a

815
00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:25,020
lot of these people when we did get

816
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,220
names is there anything you wanted to

817
00:31:29,389 --> 00:31:27,600
just bring in on that bit when we're

818
00:31:33,529 --> 00:31:29,399
talking about finding these potential

819
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:33,539
parents yeah it was the the two men that

820
00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:37,260
this Source uh describes

821
00:31:41,149 --> 00:31:37,980
um

822
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:41,159
in exactly the same age group as other

823
00:31:47,330 --> 00:31:43,740
people have mentioned

824
00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:47,340
um and like David says one of them went

825
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:48,779
off the rails

826
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,000
but the the other man was the

827
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:56,640
alleged to be the photographer and he

828
00:32:00,830 --> 00:31:57,840
was the one who was alleged to have

829
00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:00,840
taken the boss to Glasgow to drop the

830
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:02,700
negatives off at the record

831
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:05,460
and it's that man that was the most

832
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:06,960
interesting because

833
00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:09,600
he apparently is still alive by all

834
00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:11,159
accounts

835
00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:14,820
um and he was described as having left

836
00:32:19,310 --> 00:32:17,700
the hotel within a matter of weeks of

837
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,320
this happening because the change in his

838
00:32:24,590 --> 00:32:21,120
character

839
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:24,600
um any this the description was really

840
00:32:29,510 --> 00:32:27,240
sharp really severe this this man became

841
00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:29,520
extremely introverted having like say

842
00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:31,919
been in a reasonable extrovert before

843
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:35,700
that and he is the source says that this

844
00:32:42,529 --> 00:32:38,159
man took a bus back to Glasgow and from

845
00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:42,539
there went to the coast and returned to

846
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:43,260
live

847
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,320
on an island off the west coast of

848
00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:48,720
Scotland and he couldn't be sure which

849
00:32:52,430 --> 00:32:50,520
but he thought it might have been Aaron

850
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:52,440
or Ailey

851
00:32:58,669 --> 00:32:56,399
and he lived with there with his mother

852
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,679
and it's these strange little details

853
00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:01,200
because we had another person

854
00:33:06,049 --> 00:33:04,620
elsewhere who said the photographer went

855
00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:06,059
to Glasgow

856
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:08,039
back after all this happened went back

857
00:33:12,769 --> 00:33:10,440
to Glasgow to live with his mother and

858
00:33:15,169 --> 00:33:12,779
now this person didn't say he went and I

859
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:15,179
lived off the of an and on the coast but

860
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:16,799
he did say he went to Glasgow to live

861
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:18,299
with his mother and it's just strange

862
00:33:25,789 --> 00:33:22,620
little details that tally not exact

863
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:25,799
um but again this person the the source

864
00:33:31,610 --> 00:33:28,200
that we're talking about here said that

865
00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:31,620
the the photographer was aged 24 or 25.

866
00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:34,500
and that's almost exactly the same age

867
00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:38,460
that the other person who said uh that

868
00:33:43,370 --> 00:33:40,919
he was from Glasgow said he was so these

869
00:33:45,529 --> 00:33:43,380
again you know it's it wasn't it wasn't

870
00:33:46,669 --> 00:33:45,539
like he was 18. you know it was

871
00:33:50,389 --> 00:33:46,679
definitely

872
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:50,399
older middle middle 20s glasgow's linked

873
00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:52,559
and living with his mother

874
00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:53,340
um

875
00:33:58,250 --> 00:33:55,740
yeah I saw one person did mention as

876
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,260
well that he was a keen bird watcher

877
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:00,480
which initially was one of the reasons

878
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,880
that we had for believing that he'd gone

879
00:34:04,909 --> 00:34:04,320
up into

880
00:34:08,930 --> 00:34:04,919
um

881
00:34:10,430 --> 00:34:08,940
up to Calvin but this person said uh he

882
00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:10,440
was a bird watcher and he had a

883
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:12,960
distinctive coat and uh he just liked

884
00:34:18,649 --> 00:34:16,320
going up around the putlockery dam and

885
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:18,659
uh watching the birds up there as well

886
00:34:23,149 --> 00:34:20,339
so that was just a another little bit

887
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,159
but I had a had a look and unfortunately

888
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:25,200
again we armed with only with the first

889
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:26,580
names

890
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:29,040
um but I did actually find a someone of

891
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:30,240
the right name

892
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:31,980
um I thought you know how many of these

893
00:34:36,169 --> 00:34:33,839
could there be on islands off the west

894
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:36,179
coast of Scotland but lo and behold

895
00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:38,159
where we did find the interacting dad it

896
00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:39,379
wasn't him

897
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:42,300
and we don't know whether this is Kevin

898
00:34:46,909 --> 00:34:44,159
Russell Kevin Russell could be someone

899
00:34:48,409 --> 00:34:46,919
else entirely indeed who whose name has

900
00:34:50,450 --> 00:34:48,419
ended up on the back of the print and

901
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,460
but we have been able to establish and

902
00:34:54,169 --> 00:34:53,280
Giles did some um Works going to the

903
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:54,179
local

904
00:34:59,329 --> 00:34:56,879
um is it Perth the Electoral roll yeah

905
00:35:02,210 --> 00:34:59,339
and you were able to confirm that there

906
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:02,220
was a person of that name

907
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:04,140
um residing at one of the hotels at the

908
00:35:07,609 --> 00:35:05,520
relevant times

909
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:07,619
yeah popped to the library in Perth and

910
00:35:12,829 --> 00:35:09,839
uh check the Electoral register

911
00:35:16,609 --> 00:35:12,839
for that period there was no Kevin

912
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:16,619
Russell in the 1990 version

913
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:19,260
um of the Electoral register but that

914
00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:21,119
was you had to

915
00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:23,640
basically submit to where you were

916
00:35:29,329 --> 00:35:26,940
living by October 89.

917
00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:29,339
so there was no Kevin Russell in the

918
00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,020
pitlockery area late 1989 he was however

919
00:35:40,010 --> 00:35:36,320
in the

920
00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:40,020
1991 and 1992 Edition so that means he

921
00:35:44,690 --> 00:35:41,820
had to register as

922
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:44,700
living in Pitt Locker he was registered

923
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:48,180
as living in the hydro Hotel

924
00:35:52,210 --> 00:35:48,900
um

925
00:35:54,890 --> 00:35:52,220
so that would have been between October

926
00:35:56,810 --> 00:35:54,900
1990 and

927
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:56,820
sorry yeah yeah

928
00:36:02,569 --> 00:35:58,880
that's right October 1990 to October

929
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:02,579
1991. so he was at he was only in the

930
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:05,160
area this Kevin Russell if it was him he

931
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:07,140
was only in the area for a year or year

932
00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:09,300
and a bit at most which is quite normal

933
00:36:14,690 --> 00:36:12,180
I mean like Dave said it's a seasonal

934
00:36:16,849 --> 00:36:14,700
town that La Cree you you sometimes come

935
00:36:19,609 --> 00:36:16,859
in and just work for the summer

936
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:19,619
and then and then you go and then if and

937
00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,079
often it's young members of staff you're

938
00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:24,900
maybe just do one season and go so it's

939
00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:27,420
it's no surprise that that he didn't

940
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:29,940
appear anywhere else I said I did check

941
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:32,400
a wider area I checked other towns

942
00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:33,540
locally

943
00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:35,940
have a feldy and then further down to

944
00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:38,520
Perth and there's no other Kevin Russell

945
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:41,400
in percher as far as I could tell around

946
00:36:45,950 --> 00:36:43,020
that time

947
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:45,960
the only one mentioned was Kevin Russell

948
00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:49,680
that lived at Hydro Hotel because you

949
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:52,380
often start with living

950
00:36:55,730 --> 00:36:53,760
um because there was an accommodations

951
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:55,740
here as hotels would provide

952
00:37:00,410 --> 00:36:58,140
accommodation so he lived in that hotel

953
00:37:04,190 --> 00:37:00,420
it was registered that hotel anyway just

954
00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:04,200
for those two two years and that was I

955
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:07,740
think that's just one Matthew on it

956
00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:10,800
being the wrong one and yeah yeah the

957
00:37:14,930 --> 00:37:13,020
answer was staggering given the the

958
00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:14,940
number of people in Scotland

959
00:37:18,829 --> 00:37:17,220
um you know five million or so and

960
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:18,839
they're being

961
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:19,440
um

962
00:37:24,290 --> 00:37:22,079
uh just over a dozen possible Kevin

963
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:24,300
Russells of the right age you know the

964
00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:25,680
chance that

965
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:27,599
this Kevin Russell's definitely the name

966
00:37:32,329 --> 00:37:29,820
on the back of the photograph uh Craig

967
00:37:33,950 --> 00:37:32,339
Lindsay said that that text in red was

968
00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:33,960
there when he got it

969
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:35,640
um from the record

970
00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:39,599
and this man working for this one

971
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:42,420
resident for this one year

972
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:44,400
um of the right name in a small town

973
00:37:50,510 --> 00:37:48,060
like pitocry it's just the yeah I mean

974
00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:50,520
hundreds of thousands to one against and

975
00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:52,740
like playing Sherlock Holmes here let's

976
00:37:55,849 --> 00:37:54,900
let's think about this like so you've

977
00:37:59,390 --> 00:37:55,859
got

978
00:38:01,609 --> 00:37:59,400
uh the print with the with in written on

979
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:01,619
the back of it copyright Kevin Russell

980
00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:05,040
we've got a Kevin Russell who is on the

981
00:38:10,670 --> 00:38:07,140
Electoral roll at the right time living

982
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:10,680
in a hotel or resident in a hotel in

983
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:13,680
pitlockery we've got we've got

984
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:17,040
um Craig Lindsay being given the number

985
00:38:21,530 --> 00:38:19,380
of the person whose name is on the back

986
00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:21,540
the Kevin presumably Kevin Russell to

987
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:23,460
ring and the guy who answers the phone

988
00:38:28,730 --> 00:38:25,980
answering the phone in a hotel in

989
00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:28,740
pidlockery what are the chances of it

990
00:38:45,050 --> 00:38:43,310
another another bizarre twist for us was

991
00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:45,060
of course I mean there were three large

992
00:38:51,470 --> 00:38:47,460
hotels in pitlochry there's the the

993
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:51,480
hydro the Athol Palace and fishes and at

994
00:38:56,990 --> 00:38:54,240
some stage this guy's been linked to

995
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,000
each one which has sort of made this

996
00:39:01,310 --> 00:38:59,280
trying to track him down even harder you

997
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:01,320
know there's there's someone said oh he

998
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,240
was at this hotel he was at that one so

999
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:05,280
yeah which has just made you know we

1000
00:39:11,089 --> 00:39:07,380
were totally thrown by the hydro hydro

1001
00:39:13,069 --> 00:39:11,099
wasn't actually in the equation until I

1002
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:13,079
went and checked checked the Electoral

1003
00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:14,640
register in Perth we thought it was

1004
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,740
either fishes well first of all we

1005
00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:18,960
thought it was the Athol Palace which is

1006
00:39:23,329 --> 00:39:21,780
what Craig said he remembered and Dave

1007
00:39:26,270 --> 00:39:23,339
you spoke to the manager there didn't

1008
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:26,280
you last year yeah and then we tried the

1009
00:39:30,290 --> 00:39:28,320
fishes and then you contacted the former

1010
00:39:33,170 --> 00:39:30,300
former owners of the Fishers the

1011
00:39:34,849 --> 00:39:33,180
padfields yeah and and then suddenly

1012
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,859
it's turned up it's it's it was actually

1013
00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:36,480
the hydro but I think like we said

1014
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:38,820
before the staff I think all often knew

1015
00:39:41,870 --> 00:39:40,380
each other and they probably socialize

1016
00:39:44,329 --> 00:39:41,880
with each other

1017
00:39:47,150 --> 00:39:44,339
so that's probably where some of the

1018
00:39:50,089 --> 00:39:47,160
confusion came so I've had it confirmed

1019
00:39:51,950 --> 00:39:50,099
to me by several people that the staff

1020
00:39:55,010 --> 00:39:51,960
from the hydro

1021
00:39:57,950 --> 00:39:55,020
drank at the fishes that was their quote

1022
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:57,960
unquote Watering Hole they're local

1023
00:40:03,530 --> 00:40:01,440
so the the you know there isn't an issue

1024
00:40:06,050 --> 00:40:03,540
with Kevin Russell working at the hydro

1025
00:40:09,410 --> 00:40:06,060
and not being potentially linked with

1026
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,420
the events and the people uh at Fishers

1027
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,000
it would it was an easy and it's an easy

1028
00:40:18,530 --> 00:40:15,359
link and nobody I've spoken to uh has

1029
00:40:20,750 --> 00:40:18,540
questioned that that's a possibility

1030
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:20,760
yeah yeah absolutely I mean going

1031
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:23,040
through that we're in December of 2022

1032
00:40:25,970 --> 00:40:24,960
by this point where we've we've got

1033
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:25,980
names

1034
00:40:28,670 --> 00:40:26,700
um

1035
00:40:30,109 --> 00:40:28,680
you know all through December into early

1036
00:40:32,990 --> 00:40:30,119
January you're going through all of

1037
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:33,000
these potentials David writes to a few

1038
00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:35,940
in Glasgow right you know actually sends

1039
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:38,460
them letters yeah

1040
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:40,560
um and then we get into January with

1041
00:40:43,310 --> 00:40:42,119
this and we're not getting anywhere but

1042
00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:43,320
Matthew do you want to talk about this

1043
00:40:46,310 --> 00:40:45,300
tribunal that you you actually got going

1044
00:40:49,790 --> 00:40:46,320
on

1045
00:40:53,089 --> 00:40:49,800
yeah this is uh my my attempt because

1046
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:53,099
once we've got the name we we sat on

1047
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:55,680
this name for 10 months we didn't just

1048
00:41:00,890 --> 00:40:57,060
let it out

1049
00:41:02,810 --> 00:41:00,900
um because we were conscious that uh

1050
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:02,820
there was a chance we would the man

1051
00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:06,240
didn't want to be found initially

1052
00:41:10,310 --> 00:41:08,040
um and we weren't clear on the reasons

1053
00:41:14,089 --> 00:41:10,320
for that but uh we we have tried our

1054
00:41:16,250 --> 00:41:14,099
absolute utmost to privately to try and

1055
00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:16,260
locate it and one way in which we did

1056
00:41:20,089 --> 00:41:17,400
that was

1057
00:41:24,530 --> 00:41:20,099
to go to the National Archives which has

1058
00:41:27,230 --> 00:41:24,540
these formerly uh former mod files

1059
00:41:29,690 --> 00:41:27,240
um and asked them for the name and then

1060
00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:29,700
the the name of Craig Lindsay and

1061
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:32,220
presumably Kevin Russell are both

1062
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:35,760
present in this this defe file

1063
00:41:43,790 --> 00:41:40,020
but it's been withheld until 2076 on the

1064
00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:43,800
grounds of privacy personal privacy with

1065
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:44,640
the

1066
00:41:53,630 --> 00:41:52,380
and distress

1067
00:41:57,470 --> 00:41:53,640
and

1068
00:42:00,050 --> 00:41:57,480
I asked the National Archives to let me

1069
00:42:03,290 --> 00:42:00,060
have the name and they refused I

1070
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:03,300
appealed and they refused I went to the

1071
00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:05,099
information commissioner and they issued

1072
00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:09,720
a preliminary ruling uh refusing I asked

1073
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:11,820
for a formal ruling and they refused

1074
00:42:17,569 --> 00:42:14,760
they you know said no and then I took it

1075
00:42:19,790 --> 00:42:17,579
to the first tier tribunal which is like

1076
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:19,800
the fifth stage

1077
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:22,800
um there are there are more beyond that

1078
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:24,960
but it's it's clear that

1079
00:42:30,290 --> 00:42:27,599
this is not going to be resolved in that

1080
00:42:33,310 --> 00:42:30,300
manner and it

1081
00:42:35,470 --> 00:42:33,320
it became clear to me it isn't possible

1082
00:42:38,810 --> 00:42:35,480
to argue

1083
00:42:40,310 --> 00:42:38,820
by means of evidence and logic it can

1084
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:40,320
only be argued on the point of law and

1085
00:42:45,230 --> 00:42:43,740
the law is the law disagree with it as

1086
00:42:49,310 --> 00:42:45,240
we may

1087
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:49,320
um my case was essentially that in all

1088
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:51,300
the years that the ministry of defense

1089
00:42:57,309 --> 00:42:52,920
and the National Archives had been

1090
00:43:01,609 --> 00:42:57,319
releasing UFO files which was from 98 to

1091
00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:01,619
2007 as it turned out involving tens of

1092
00:43:04,510 --> 00:43:03,599
thousands of pieces of personal

1093
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:04,520
information

1094
00:43:10,370 --> 00:43:07,260
including details of children who'd

1095
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,380
witnessed UFOs Ministry of Defense

1096
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:12,720
Personnel civil servants telephone

1097
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:16,319
numbers addresses ages uh you name it

1098
00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:17,760
um there's information about people who

1099
00:43:22,250 --> 00:43:19,980
are clearly mentally ill who were

1100
00:43:24,050 --> 00:43:22,260
writing in saying aliens are contacting

1101
00:43:26,569 --> 00:43:24,060
me through my television

1102
00:43:28,490 --> 00:43:26,579
um there are people in sheltered housing

1103
00:43:30,410 --> 00:43:28,500
um on all of this is there in the clear

1104
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,420
in all that time

1105
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:33,119
there hasn't been a single recorded

1106
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:34,440
complaint

1107
00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:37,260
to anyone about that information being

1108
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:40,140
released into the public domain

1109
00:43:45,770 --> 00:43:42,960
but ironically when the Freedom of

1110
00:43:48,109 --> 00:43:45,780
Information Act 2005 came into Force

1111
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,119
despite its title

1112
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:50,400
it was used to actually conceal

1113
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:51,480
information

1114
00:43:56,210 --> 00:43:55,140
and come first of January 2008 the

1115
00:43:57,710 --> 00:43:56,220
shutters went down at the National

1116
00:44:00,050 --> 00:43:57,720
Archives

1117
00:44:02,809 --> 00:44:00,060
prior to that every piece of personal

1118
00:44:05,569 --> 00:44:02,819
information is there for anyone to see

1119
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:05,579
and the Press complaints commission the

1120
00:44:09,770 --> 00:44:07,680
National Archives themselves and ipso

1121
00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:09,780
have confirmed to me that there has been

1122
00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:12,420
not one complete zero

1123
00:44:17,569 --> 00:44:14,700
um but after that the great fear

1124
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:17,579
apparently was that these people would

1125
00:44:23,470 --> 00:44:19,920
be approached by the press and people

1126
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:23,480
like ourselves and they'd be traumatized

1127
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,880
by these these interactions despite

1128
00:44:32,089 --> 00:44:29,040
there being literally no evidence to

1129
00:44:34,370 --> 00:44:32,099
substantiate that that belief and

1130
00:44:38,510 --> 00:44:34,380
um no one is allowed to see these this

1131
00:44:41,809 --> 00:44:38,520
information now for 84 years from the

1132
00:44:43,790 --> 00:44:41,819
date the last date in the file because

1133
00:44:46,609 --> 00:44:43,800
the the assumption is if someone is an

1134
00:44:49,010 --> 00:44:46,619
adult they were are assumed to be 16 at

1135
00:44:50,089 --> 00:44:49,020
the time which again is a is a low age

1136
00:44:52,490 --> 00:44:50,099
especially when you're dealing with

1137
00:44:55,309 --> 00:44:52,500
civil servants and people like that

1138
00:44:57,530 --> 00:44:55,319
um and the 100 Year rule applies so you

1139
00:44:59,390 --> 00:44:57,540
have to wait until essentially they are

1140
00:45:02,210 --> 00:44:59,400
guaranteed to be dead before you can

1141
00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:02,220
know their names yeah I think it's worth

1142
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:04,200
reiterating that this is the file that

1143
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:05,760
you're going after you were going after

1144
00:45:10,910 --> 00:45:08,640
this is the file that was misreported I

1145
00:45:12,770 --> 00:45:10,920
think it was in the Scottish Sun that

1146
00:45:15,290 --> 00:45:12,780
the photographs had been reclassified

1147
00:45:17,329 --> 00:45:15,300
until 2076 and that's when the whole UFO

1148
00:45:19,069 --> 00:45:17,339
Community blew up with saying these

1149
00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:19,079
photos have been reclassified again but

1150
00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:21,180
this is we just need to reiterate this

1151
00:45:30,349 --> 00:45:25,319
which I continue to do often

1152
00:45:32,569 --> 00:45:30,359
it's just a it's one sheet of paper that

1153
00:45:36,770 --> 00:45:32,579
you can actually read it's just that the

1154
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:36,780
two names have been removed yes now what

1155
00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:38,400
we've got to be clear about here is that

1156
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:40,380
earlier on we were saying there must be

1157
00:45:45,950 --> 00:45:43,260
a file on this case which is the one

1158
00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:45,960
that has been probably been moved out of

1159
00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:48,420
the whole system given to something like

1160
00:45:54,589 --> 00:45:50,900
BAE systems or some private contractor

1161
00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:54,599
you know somewhere there is a file on

1162
00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:57,180
this got to be that that's but it's not

1163
00:46:01,069 --> 00:45:59,040
in the public record system the one

1164
00:46:03,470 --> 00:46:01,079
we're talking about is simply the two

1165
00:46:05,870 --> 00:46:03,480
names on a sheet of paper that is in the

1166
00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:05,880
file that's been released yeah all the

1167
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:08,220
all the um the the pieces of evidence

1168
00:46:12,770 --> 00:46:10,740
that are referenced yeah but that's far

1169
00:46:16,490 --> 00:46:12,780
too complex to explain to your average

1170
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:16,500
reader of the Sun or the Daily Mail

1171
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:19,440
but the absurdity of it is even like say

1172
00:46:24,109 --> 00:46:22,079
Craig Lindsay's name was redacted along

1173
00:46:26,569 --> 00:46:24,119
with the telephone number the 1990

1174
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:26,579
telephone number for RAF pit reevy yeah

1175
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:29,220
now I imagine that that isn't even if

1176
00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:30,660
you were to dial it I doubt you'd still

1177
00:46:34,010 --> 00:46:31,740
get through

1178
00:46:37,609 --> 00:46:34,020
um given the dialing code predominantly

1179
00:46:39,950 --> 00:46:37,619
changed and we you know even when we had

1180
00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:39,960
um a statement a signed statement from

1181
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:44,040
Craig to say uh I was contacted by David

1182
00:46:50,930 --> 00:46:46,880
Clarke uh in

1183
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:50,940
2021 I think it was the first time uh 32

1184
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:54,480
years 2022 32 years had passed no one

1185
00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:57,359
else had contacted me I uh happily spoke

1186
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,640
to him handed the photograph over uh was

1187
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:00,960
photographed appeared in the Daily Mail

1188
00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:04,500
and subsequent to that no one contacted

1189
00:47:09,530 --> 00:47:05,359
me

1190
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,540
literally no one these great allegation

1191
00:47:13,089 --> 00:47:11,280
it's great supposed fear that these

1192
00:47:15,410 --> 00:47:13,099
people will be harassed and doorstep and

1193
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:15,420
befoned at all all times of the day and

1194
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:17,280
night and

1195
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:19,680
no one no one

1196
00:47:24,109 --> 00:47:21,599
and that's that's an assigned statement

1197
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,119
from Craig Lindsay and yet that's that's

1198
00:47:28,370 --> 00:47:26,640
the justification used to to keep these

1199
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,380
these details Secret

1200
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:30,240
yeah that's the thing absolutely and

1201
00:47:35,210 --> 00:47:31,859
this is leading us right up until the

1202
00:47:37,069 --> 00:47:35,220
end of uh January well I was just going

1203
00:47:39,290 --> 00:47:37,079
to say to Matthew I mean can you explain

1204
00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:39,300
Matthew you know all the different um

1205
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:42,240
Kevin Russells that you've contacted you

1206
00:47:45,470 --> 00:47:43,740
know because I mean you've been in touch

1207
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:45,480
with literally hundreds haven't you all

1208
00:47:50,510 --> 00:47:47,599
across the world

1209
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:50,520
you're not harassing them it's a simple

1210
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:52,140
uh this is what investigative

1211
00:47:57,050 --> 00:47:54,839
journalists do every single day it's

1212
00:47:59,329 --> 00:47:57,060
like someone's in the news you contact

1213
00:48:00,530 --> 00:47:59,339
them and you say um could you I'd like

1214
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:00,540
to ask you about something would you be

1215
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:02,880
willing to talk about it or are you so

1216
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:05,520
and so that I'm writing a story on and

1217
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:08,640
you do it lightly and you know if they

1218
00:48:12,829 --> 00:48:10,260
tell you I don't want to talk to you

1219
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:12,839
please go away you've you don't bother

1220
00:48:18,109 --> 00:48:15,480
them again it's a perfect this is a

1221
00:48:19,609 --> 00:48:18,119
perfectly legitimate thing to do and the

1222
00:48:22,550 --> 00:48:19,619
National Archives and the ministry of

1223
00:48:25,790 --> 00:48:22,560
Defense are just using the law to

1224
00:48:27,770 --> 00:48:25,800
prevent legitimative legitimate

1225
00:48:31,809 --> 00:48:27,780
investigative journalism I've made this

1226
00:48:35,930 --> 00:48:34,069
it really is Central to having a

1227
00:48:38,329 --> 00:48:35,940
democracy actually being able to do

1228
00:48:40,190 --> 00:48:38,339
things like this and Matthew you just

1229
00:48:43,309 --> 00:48:40,200
you know summarize what you did to try

1230
00:48:45,410 --> 00:48:43,319
and track him down yes so as as we got

1231
00:48:47,450 --> 00:48:45,420
when we got the name that was like you

1232
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:47,460
know a fantastic moment we thought we

1233
00:48:51,650 --> 00:48:50,160
know we're almost cracked this uh little

1234
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,660
did we know

1235
00:48:55,910 --> 00:48:53,520
um because it was there was sort of the

1236
00:48:57,770 --> 00:48:55,920
the implicit fear it was like oh we've

1237
00:49:00,530 --> 00:48:57,780
got the name fantastic oh it's Kevin

1238
00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:00,540
Russell and it was it was clear it was

1239
00:49:04,550 --> 00:49:03,180
very apparent that that's a very common

1240
00:49:06,890 --> 00:49:04,560
name

1241
00:49:08,270 --> 00:49:06,900
um even in a you know a country with a

1242
00:49:09,710 --> 00:49:08,280
relatively small population like

1243
00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:09,720
Scotland

1244
00:49:16,970 --> 00:49:13,140
um just at first search there were 24 25

1245
00:49:20,510 --> 00:49:16,980
in England and Wales there were over 200

1246
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:20,520
um and then I we tracked them down and I

1247
00:49:25,069 --> 00:49:22,260
remember like Vinnie you found the first

1248
00:49:27,050 --> 00:49:25,079
man on Twitter and he was a fell Walker

1249
00:49:28,730 --> 00:49:27,060
and he was Scottish and he was posting a

1250
00:49:31,069 --> 00:49:28,740
photographs and it's like it's got to be

1251
00:49:32,750 --> 00:49:31,079
him no it isn't

1252
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:32,760
um and then are you named after an uncle

1253
00:49:37,010 --> 00:49:34,800
or anything like that no no I'm not and

1254
00:49:39,069 --> 00:49:37,020
so okay thank you for your time and lo

1255
00:49:42,650 --> 00:49:39,079
and behold we just went through

1256
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:42,660
every Scottish person with the surname

1257
00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:45,300
Russell in perthshire

1258
00:49:50,089 --> 00:49:47,880
um every person every Scottish person

1259
00:49:52,730 --> 00:49:50,099
called Kevin Russell that I could locate

1260
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,740
and we wrote to them we emailed them we

1261
00:49:56,569 --> 00:49:54,000
found them on Facebook and on Twitter

1262
00:49:57,230 --> 00:49:56,579
and we called them

1263
00:50:01,370 --> 00:49:57,240
um

1264
00:50:04,849 --> 00:50:01,380
no one has been rude in the slightest

1265
00:50:07,309 --> 00:50:04,859
the the the the worst reaction of anyone

1266
00:50:08,510 --> 00:50:07,319
was a gentleman who I assembly said you

1267
00:50:10,849 --> 00:50:08,520
know my name is Matthew Wilson I'm

1268
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,859
calling bill for Dr David Clark

1269
00:50:13,849 --> 00:50:12,480
um from Sheffield Hallam University and

1270
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,859
he said no thank you and put the phone

1271
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:15,359
down

1272
00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:18,780
literally the worst reaction and that is

1273
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:21,540
so atypical most but also Matthew the

1274
00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:24,000
one's the one who um of the ones I wrote

1275
00:50:29,390 --> 00:50:26,760
to one of them came back and said oh I I

1276
00:50:31,569 --> 00:50:29,400
I'd love to I am Kevin Russell I'd love

1277
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:31,579
to be the Kevin Russell

1278
00:50:37,730 --> 00:50:34,140
I've read about the story and I wish it

1279
00:50:39,890 --> 00:50:37,740
was me but it isn't yeah no absolutely I

1280
00:50:42,650 --> 00:50:39,900
think people are just intrigued

1281
00:50:46,670 --> 00:50:42,660
um I I spoke to her vicar um a vicar

1282
00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:46,680
that Mr Russell um in in Perth uh the

1283
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:48,119
Perth area and he had me on the phone

1284
00:50:51,770 --> 00:50:49,920
for 20 minutes talking to me about like

1285
00:50:53,450 --> 00:50:51,780
the extended family and I was going to

1286
00:50:55,730 --> 00:50:53,460
talk to these all these various Russells

1287
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:55,740
to see if they knew her Kevin

1288
00:51:01,849 --> 00:50:58,800
um and I've been around the world

1289
00:51:05,089 --> 00:51:01,859
um I I've found Lee uh people who were

1290
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:05,099
worked at the uh pitlocky Hydro who now

1291
00:51:09,650 --> 00:51:07,680
live in Australia and I found them and I

1292
00:51:11,569 --> 00:51:09,660
was very certain to make sure that I

1293
00:51:12,650 --> 00:51:11,579
found them at a decent time I didn't

1294
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,660
want to bring anyone in the middle of

1295
00:51:15,770 --> 00:51:14,160
the night

1296
00:51:17,210 --> 00:51:15,780
um and they were they were perfectly

1297
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:17,220
polite yeah you know I've got various

1298
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:19,440
men memories and I can't recall very

1299
00:51:24,049 --> 00:51:21,420
much you can understand it's that long

1300
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,059
ago but um I wish you well

1301
00:51:28,849 --> 00:51:26,640
um and then the we will advise at one

1302
00:51:30,170 --> 00:51:28,859
point that Kevin Russell's mum might

1303
00:51:32,809 --> 00:51:30,180
have worked at the pitlockery festival

1304
00:51:36,829 --> 00:51:32,819
theater and a lady on Facebook was

1305
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:36,839
incredibly kind she found me uh sent me

1306
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:39,180
messages I've added back and forth is

1307
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:41,400
over a great number of months and she

1308
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,160
too had worked at the theater and had

1309
00:51:48,829 --> 00:51:46,319
kept the programs and these programs

1310
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:48,839
were incredibly detailed and listed

1311
00:51:53,630 --> 00:51:51,119
literally everyone from you know the the

1312
00:51:55,849 --> 00:51:53,640
managing director to the principal cast

1313
00:51:57,650 --> 00:51:55,859
to the car park attendants and the

1314
00:52:00,829 --> 00:51:57,660
people who washed the pots and

1315
00:52:03,950 --> 00:52:00,839
everyone's listed and this this lady

1316
00:52:05,569 --> 00:52:03,960
this Mrs Russell was listed there and uh

1317
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:05,579
I went and found her and long story

1318
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,220
short one son lives in New Zealand one

1319
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:10,559
son lives in Utah I found them and

1320
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:12,480
phoned them and I found her in them in

1321
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:15,780
France and unfortunately it wasn't her

1322
00:52:21,290 --> 00:52:19,200
but again she was she was amazed when I

1323
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:21,300
when I found out you know very careful

1324
00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:22,559
to say

1325
00:52:26,809 --> 00:52:24,599
um I know you don't know who I am and

1326
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:26,819
I'm asking you to confirm information

1327
00:52:31,010 --> 00:52:28,559
about your life but this is the reason

1328
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,020
why we're doing it and once I'd done so

1329
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:33,599
and you know in a polite friendly manner

1330
00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:36,240
she was absolutely fine she was just oh

1331
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:38,700
yes I'm you know again like with the the

1332
00:52:42,349 --> 00:52:41,040
other person it's like I'm you know I'm

1333
00:52:43,730 --> 00:52:42,359
sorry I'm not the person you're looking

1334
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:43,740
for

1335
00:52:49,490 --> 00:52:47,520
um and yes so all in all about 300

1336
00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:49,500
Russell's

1337
00:52:55,210 --> 00:52:51,180
um unfortunately a very common name in

1338
00:52:59,809 --> 00:52:55,220
in Scotland and about 150 Kevin Russells

1339
00:53:03,410 --> 00:52:59,819
and no hits unfortunately a lot of a lot

1340
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:03,420
of non-responses it has to be said

1341
00:53:11,230 --> 00:53:05,760
um Fair number of denials

1342
00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:13,849
and the name has appeared on in the

1343
00:53:18,829 --> 00:53:16,079
Daily Record one of the largest um

1344
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:18,839
circulation newspapers in Scotland

1345
00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,900
um it's very very odd that no one has

1346
00:53:25,609 --> 00:53:23,819
recognized that photograph and no one

1347
00:53:29,210 --> 00:53:25,619
has said oh I was at school with Kevin

1348
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:29,220
Russell or oh I know that name or it's

1349
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,740
very strange you know it's almost as if

1350
00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:33,119
he has been abducted to another

1351
00:53:38,089 --> 00:53:35,220
dimension or something

1352
00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:38,099
yeah we were really I mean I know I'm

1353
00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:40,260
sure I speak for everyone he went at the

1354
00:53:44,329 --> 00:53:41,640
very least I think we were hoping

1355
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:44,339
someone would say I was at catering

1356
00:53:49,010 --> 00:53:46,500
college or I was at secondary school

1357
00:53:52,370 --> 00:53:49,020
with Kevin Russell

1358
00:53:56,030 --> 00:53:52,380
um because he yes he was working at this

1359
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:56,040
hotel for this one season in 1990 but he

1360
00:54:00,410 --> 00:53:58,260
has to have had a history somewhere

1361
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:00,420
and we had two two particularly

1362
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:03,359
conflicting accounts one gentleman who

1363
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:04,680
again I found

1364
00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:06,960
um thanks to giles's work he was he too

1365
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:10,260
is named on the hydro Hotel electoral

1366
00:54:15,710 --> 00:54:11,760
register list

1367
00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:15,720
he was just adamant he'd known Kevin

1368
00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:17,400
Russell he'd worked at the hydro for a

1369
00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:18,900
very long time

1370
00:54:25,010 --> 00:54:22,200
and Kevin Russell was from Falkirk and

1371
00:54:28,549 --> 00:54:25,020
was a Falkirk football fan

1372
00:54:31,970 --> 00:54:28,559
and yet another person who also worked

1373
00:54:34,270 --> 00:54:31,980
at the Hydra Hotel again for a

1374
00:54:37,069 --> 00:54:34,280
reasonable length of time

1375
00:54:40,609 --> 00:54:37,079
informed as he was equally adamant Kevin

1376
00:54:42,410 --> 00:54:40,619
Russell was from Glasgow he had helped

1377
00:54:44,510 --> 00:54:42,420
him unload his car when he'd first

1378
00:54:45,710 --> 00:54:44,520
arrived from England this was the man

1379
00:54:49,069 --> 00:54:45,720
speaking Kevin Russell had helped him

1380
00:54:50,030 --> 00:54:49,079
unload his car and then when this had

1381
00:54:51,950 --> 00:54:50,040
happened

1382
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:51,960
Kevin Russell had gone back to live with

1383
00:54:58,490 --> 00:54:54,960
his mother in Glasgow

1384
00:54:59,690 --> 00:54:58,500
so we had you know they're not not a

1385
00:55:02,510 --> 00:54:59,700
million miles away I think they're about

1386
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:02,520
20 miles away from one another

1387
00:55:08,329 --> 00:55:04,559
um Falkirk and Glasgow

1388
00:55:11,450 --> 00:55:08,339
um so it it was unclear you know which

1389
00:55:12,170 --> 00:55:11,460
account was was accurate

1390
00:55:14,990 --> 00:55:12,180
um

1391
00:55:18,049 --> 00:55:15,000
and so we were just unsure how to

1392
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,059
proceed according to various sort of

1393
00:55:25,609 --> 00:55:20,640
public Source websites

1394
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:25,619
the the Kevin Russells in Falkirk

1395
00:55:29,870 --> 00:55:28,440
who are of the right age

1396
00:55:32,809 --> 00:55:29,880
are not

1397
00:55:35,390 --> 00:55:32,819
the right man they seem to be two who

1398
00:55:37,790 --> 00:55:35,400
particularly matched but both of those

1399
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:37,800
one has denied being the man

1400
00:55:44,569 --> 00:55:40,559
and the other one appeared to be married

1401
00:55:45,890 --> 00:55:44,579
in the year before in in 1989 and

1402
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:45,900
everyone we'd spoken to said Kevin

1403
00:55:54,589 --> 00:55:49,680
Russell was single in 1990 at the hotel

1404
00:55:56,690 --> 00:55:54,599
that left us with uh four men in Glasgow

1405
00:55:58,609 --> 00:55:56,700
well two in Glasgow in particular who

1406
00:56:02,630 --> 00:55:58,619
were born in Glasgow

1407
00:56:05,089 --> 00:56:02,640
um one in Airdrie and one in bayliston

1408
00:56:09,950 --> 00:56:05,099
um the two from Glasgow were both born

1409
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:09,960
in 1967 and they seemed to be the prime

1410
00:56:15,470 --> 00:56:12,319
matches and we haven't been able to

1411
00:56:17,329 --> 00:56:15,480
definitively locate either of them

1412
00:56:19,010 --> 00:56:17,339
and that's where things stand

1413
00:56:20,690 --> 00:56:19,020
yeah and that's the thing and then going

1414
00:56:22,609 --> 00:56:20,700
back to the ones that you have contacted

1415
00:56:24,650 --> 00:56:22,619
spoken to that we still have the

1416
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:24,660
possibility that we could have found him

1417
00:56:29,809 --> 00:56:27,359
and he said no it's not me yeah we could

1418
00:56:33,230 --> 00:56:31,190
um

1419
00:56:34,790 --> 00:56:33,240
let me think what else there is yeah I

1420
00:56:36,109 --> 00:56:34,800
mean it just this is the thing we we

1421
00:56:38,510 --> 00:56:36,119
just

1422
00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:38,520
we've done one you could have emigrated

1423
00:56:41,870 --> 00:56:40,020
he could have emigrated there were still

1424
00:56:43,790 --> 00:56:41,880
so many little things that lead off the

1425
00:56:46,910 --> 00:56:43,800
work that we've kind of done and film

1426
00:56:48,349 --> 00:56:46,920
we've kind of done all we can you may

1427
00:56:50,809 --> 00:56:48,359
have missed him somewhere in there and

1428
00:56:53,630 --> 00:56:50,819
not through the fault of lack of trying

1429
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:53,640
but just by just not being given that

1430
00:56:58,910 --> 00:56:57,119
that final yes yeah there was one who

1431
00:57:01,609 --> 00:56:58,920
won Kevin Russell unfortunately was

1432
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:01,619
deceased in Scotland

1433
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:04,319
um a gentleman who was born and died in

1434
00:57:09,290 --> 00:57:05,940
Dundee

1435
00:57:11,690 --> 00:57:09,300
um no one had mentioned that City uh so

1436
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:11,700
we didn't think it was him

1437
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:14,280
um we hadn't had any luck in chasing his

1438
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:15,900
family

1439
00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:18,240
um there had been four Kevin Russells

1440
00:57:24,049 --> 00:57:20,460
that had found who had passed away in

1441
00:57:26,569 --> 00:57:24,059
England as well so there were over 200

1442
00:57:29,150 --> 00:57:26,579
in England so the chances it it wasn't

1443
00:57:31,309 --> 00:57:29,160
him none of them are him

1444
00:57:36,349 --> 00:57:31,319
um but yeah so there's been five deaths

1445
00:57:39,290 --> 00:57:36,359
and but the odds are you know 220

1446
00:57:41,150 --> 00:57:39,300
Kevin Russell still extant

1447
00:57:43,490 --> 00:57:41,160
um so I mean he could be living in

1448
00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:43,500
England and if he is in England then the

1449
00:57:47,569 --> 00:57:45,300
you know the Scottish Daily Record

1450
00:57:49,849 --> 00:57:47,579
doesn't reach England does it so the

1451
00:57:52,250 --> 00:57:49,859
thing about his name isn't necessarily

1452
00:57:54,410 --> 00:57:52,260
going to sort of Reach people who may

1453
00:57:56,990 --> 00:57:54,420
know him in England but assuming he's

1454
00:57:59,150 --> 00:57:57,000
still living in Scotland

1455
00:58:01,490 --> 00:57:59,160
yeah but I mean like you said this is

1456
00:58:02,990 --> 00:58:01,500
where we're at and it was the right time

1457
00:58:05,329 --> 00:58:03,000
to put the name out there with the

1458
00:58:07,010 --> 00:58:05,339
photograph and yep you know like a call

1459
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:07,020
to arms for the general public to get

1460
00:58:11,630 --> 00:58:08,760
involved and people in the UFO community

1461
00:58:13,069 --> 00:58:11,640
that are you know want to help out if

1462
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:13,079
they can we know the guys over at

1463
00:58:17,089 --> 00:58:14,640
metabunk have been following the case

1464
00:58:20,930 --> 00:58:17,099
very closely since the the photo came

1465
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:20,940
out and you know uh so we appreciate any

1466
00:58:26,450 --> 00:58:23,040
help that anybody watching this can can

1467
00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:26,460
give us and yeah it's ongoing our

1468
00:58:31,069 --> 00:58:27,960
investigation

1469
00:58:33,470 --> 00:58:31,079
is still ongoing we still have other

1470
00:58:34,430 --> 00:58:33,480
small leads relating to the case I would

1471
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:34,440
say

1472
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:36,240
yeah yeah we've got we've got no

1473
00:58:40,430 --> 00:58:38,400
preconceived conclusions we like with

1474
00:58:43,370 --> 00:58:40,440
David you know when the the evidence

1475
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:43,380
changes we change our minds

1476
00:58:48,109 --> 00:58:46,799
um and all you know we we acknowledge as

1477
00:58:50,510 --> 00:58:48,119
well that

1478
00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:50,520
um he's not Kevin Russell is not going

1479
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,020
to be able to finish us with a set of

1480
00:58:55,670 --> 00:58:53,839
the blueprints for this thing assuming

1481
00:58:58,010 --> 00:58:55,680
you know

1482
00:59:00,289 --> 00:58:58,020
um but it would be it would

1483
00:59:04,430 --> 00:59:00,299
it would be really nice to have a chat

1484
00:59:06,530 --> 00:59:04,440
and just did you see what is recounted

1485
00:59:09,289 --> 00:59:06,540
in the file you know the hovering the

1486
00:59:11,450 --> 00:59:09,299
silence the vertical Ascent those kinds

1487
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:11,460
of things it would just be lovely

1488
00:59:14,510 --> 00:59:12,480
um to see about that there's no

1489
00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:14,520
recriminations no matter what what he

1490
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:16,920
was up to or that mountain you know

1491
00:59:20,690 --> 00:59:18,720
um poaching mushrooms going for a walk

1492
00:59:22,430 --> 00:59:20,700
it does not matter you know it's 33

1493
00:59:27,170 --> 00:59:22,440
years later

1494
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:27,180
um there's yeah just a chat and also uh

1495
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:29,040
you know reuniting with his copyright

1496
00:59:34,190 --> 00:59:31,260
his first indeed it belongs to him and

1497
00:59:35,930 --> 00:59:34,200
it's a legitimate um it's a legitimate

1498
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:35,940
sort of thing to try and find him and

1499
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:38,760
reunite him with his with it with the

1500
00:59:43,250 --> 00:59:41,520
photograph that he took you know and we

1501
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:43,260
wanted it to be interesting to know did

1502
00:59:47,569 --> 00:59:45,359
he ever get those images back from the

1503
00:59:49,609 --> 00:59:47,579
ministry of Defense because they say

1504
00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:49,619
don't they in the in the material that's

1505
00:59:53,930 --> 00:59:51,420
been released that they return those

1506
00:59:55,970 --> 00:59:53,940
images to the Daily Record well did they

1507
00:59:58,490 --> 00:59:55,980
and did the Daily Record return the

1508
01:00:01,069 --> 00:59:58,500
images to him if not why not you know

1509
01:00:02,750 --> 01:00:01,079
there's all these answers that were

1510
01:00:05,510 --> 01:00:02,760
still that they're still trying to find

1511
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:05,520
the answers to those questions

1512
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:08,400
yeah that's it so like you know it may

1513
01:00:11,690 --> 01:00:09,839
not be the video update that people

1514
01:00:13,730 --> 01:00:11,700
would really like to hear from but you

1515
01:00:15,770 --> 01:00:13,740
know we thought it was a valid it's

1516
01:00:17,930 --> 01:00:15,780
valid to kind of give this update that

1517
01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:17,940
that shows just how much work that has

1518
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:20,220
been going on since it hasn't stopped

1519
01:00:25,250 --> 01:00:23,280
basically and as a as a four

1520
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:25,260
four-man team there's only so much you

1521
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:28,200
can do with uh everyday lives and jobs

1522
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:30,720
and families and stuff so you know any

1523
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:34,020
help is appreciated going forward and

1524
01:00:39,530 --> 01:00:36,960
we'll give more updates as and when we

1525
01:00:42,049 --> 01:00:39,540
get anything if anything down the line

1526
01:00:43,010 --> 01:00:42,059
so before we finish this though yeah I

1527
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:43,020
was going to say is there anything that

1528
01:00:47,569 --> 01:00:45,359
we we need to to mention before we do

1529
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:47,579
end well I'd just like to say that you

1530
01:00:50,450 --> 01:00:48,960
know what people will probably have

1531
01:00:52,130 --> 01:00:50,460
noticed that we haven't spent the hour

1532
01:00:53,870 --> 01:00:52,140
banging on about we've got this Theory

1533
01:00:55,370 --> 01:00:53,880
and that theory about you know what

1534
01:00:57,289 --> 01:00:55,380
what's showing on them photographs

1535
01:00:59,930 --> 01:00:57,299
because you know you go on

1536
01:01:02,870 --> 01:00:59,940
on on the Twitter sphere and you you

1537
01:01:05,809 --> 01:01:02,880
just read all this stuff about it being

1538
01:01:08,690 --> 01:01:05,819
a rock in a lake and now the Wonder Lady

1539
01:01:11,150 --> 01:01:08,700
theory that it's some kind of or is it

1540
01:01:13,549 --> 01:01:11,160
Bae system the zoom borrowed a couple of

1541
01:01:16,430 --> 01:01:13,559
areas and sent them up to

1542
01:01:19,089 --> 01:01:16,440
do some tests or something

1543
01:01:21,890 --> 01:01:19,099
and the top of it yeah it's the theory

1544
01:01:23,569 --> 01:01:21,900
what annoys me about it is that these

1545
01:01:25,670 --> 01:01:23,579
things are presented as if that's it

1546
01:01:27,530 --> 01:01:25,680
that's that we've solved the mystery and

1547
01:01:30,049 --> 01:01:27,540
it's not solved the mystery at all it's

1548
01:01:31,609 --> 01:01:30,059
just a theory where's the evidence what

1549
01:01:33,230 --> 01:01:31,619
we're doing is actually

1550
01:01:36,109 --> 01:01:33,240
um doing the investigative work to try

1551
01:01:38,030 --> 01:01:36,119
and get find the person involved you

1552
01:01:40,730 --> 01:01:38,040
know Point anyone could come up with

1553
01:01:43,069 --> 01:01:40,740
with theories but you know it's actually

1554
01:01:45,770 --> 01:01:43,079
doing some legwork to actually reach the

1555
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,780
actual people involved on the spot who

1556
01:01:50,809 --> 01:01:47,280
might be able to confirm what actually

1557
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:50,819
happened it's very easy to theorize but

1558
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:53,040
you know that isn't real research it's

1559
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:54,720
just speculation

1560
01:01:59,150 --> 01:01:57,599
yeah yeah I mean there is a time and a

1561
01:02:01,990 --> 01:01:59,160
place for theories and I'm all for it

1562
01:02:04,970 --> 01:02:02,000
but it's it's a case that needs

1563
01:02:06,890 --> 01:02:04,980
conclusions it needs you know moving

1564
01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:06,900
further down the line it needs evidence

1565
01:02:10,930 --> 01:02:09,480
it needs data it needs it needs more

1566
01:02:13,250 --> 01:02:10,940
we're not going to get it from the mod

1567
01:02:16,370 --> 01:02:13,260
well so we have to go and do it

1568
01:02:19,730 --> 01:02:16,380
ourselves so again I will reiterate

1569
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:19,740
anybody watching this please get in

1570
01:02:24,109 --> 01:02:22,200
touch if you have any information if you

1571
01:02:26,750 --> 01:02:24,119
wish to remain anonymous that's

1572
01:02:29,150 --> 01:02:26,760
absolutely fine as well we will uh

1573
01:02:30,349 --> 01:02:29,160
respect your your wishes but you know it

1574
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:30,359
would just be great to be able to put

1575
01:02:34,430 --> 01:02:32,880
this case to bed once and for all so we

1576
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,440
can all get on with our lives and move

1577
01:02:39,770 --> 01:02:37,280
on to something else

1578
01:02:41,930 --> 01:02:39,780
so yeah gentlemen thank you so much

1579
01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:41,940
again uh I mean it's a pleasure working

1580
01:02:45,530 --> 01:02:43,680
with you guys and now we've been at this

1581
01:02:47,329 --> 01:02:45,540
for so long yeah it's just great so

1582
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:47,339
thank you for that

1583
01:02:51,950 --> 01:02:50,160
thank you very much thank you all right